Lessons Learned on the Camino: Forgiveness, Healing, and Spiritual Awakening with Kathleen Donnelly Israel

Interview Episode with Kathleen Donelley Israel

Kathleen: [: 00:00:00

Laurin: Hello, friends, and welcome to Curiously Wise. I'm Laurin Wittig, your host, and today I have Kathleen Donnelly Israel with me to talk about this fascinating thing that has been adjacent to my life, I should say, and that I'm I'm pondering doing myself, but let me introduce you to [00:01:00] her and then we'll dive into a great conversation.

And and you know how this rolls out. This is, we just follow the conversation where it goes. So during the 17 years that Kathleen was taking care of her disabled husband, she studied online with many enlightened thought leaders and healers. She developed some spiritual philosophies that she shared with those she met on the Camino fronts.

in: 2021

Welcome to [00:02:00] Curiously Wise, Kathleen.

Kathleen: I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.

Laurin: Thank you too. I want to, I want to just dive in.

Some people may not know what the Camino is. So would you just tell us a little bit about the Camino and how you came to want to walk it? Yeah,

Kathleen: is St. James and St. James, the apostle of Jesus actually, after, you know, after Jesus died went out into the world to tell people about Jesus and he went, he got all the way to Spain, you know, the Iberian Peninsula. He wasn't very successful. And so he he went back to Jerusalem where they martyred him.

eared and helped them do it, [: 00:03:00

And so they decided to do pilgrimages to his grave. And they used mostly the Roman roads. And that was back in like the the 2010 to 2012. I don't really know when it was. And then in the 1970s a monk wanted to resurrect the Camino and he went and found all the roads and found that they were mostly available still.

Some, some of them had been covered by freeways, but so they started walking the Camino back then again. And It's a, it's a pilgrimage, but, and I'm Catholic, so it was good for me. I, you know, I had a spiritual journey, but you don't, you know, just about one third of the people that go on it are having a spiritual journey.

oing something that's really [: 00:04:00

And somebody suggested he go do the Camino. So I think it's like it's a walking meditation. And so you just walking every day you have to keep going. They don't let you stay in and, but anyway, the reason why I went is while I was taking care of Ron. Well, he was an athlete and so I thought in our old age, we're going to be riding our bicycles across France or something like that.

was I was, you know, looking [: 00:05:00

I just noticed it was a very special thing she was doing, and I, at that right then, I thought, you know what, when Ron's done with his disease, I'm going to walk the Camino. And so, that was in 2013, and he died in 18. So, and I went in 19, so

because I had a dear friend [: 00:06:00

They come and do like six weeks at a time to make to get it done. So I'm fascinated by it. I've watched the movie the way a couple of times because that's that's a really it's really fun. Good movie. My son says, and you may agree with this, that it's, it doesn't really, this show you the Camino in all its heat.

Kathleen: Well, you know, well, did he go in the summer.

Laurin: Yes. He was there in the summer.

Kathleen: I went in the spring and the fall. I don't, you know, if that's all you have, you have to go in the summer, but it's really hot.

Laurin: Yeah. So, but he loved, he loved it and it was life changing for him. And and, and I know for my friends, my friend Phyllis, it also was life changing. It's It is one of those things that seems to have taken, sort of come into the more common knowledge in like the last six or eight years, I would say, maybe 10 years, but not something I'd ever heard of before

Kathleen: I think the movie [: 00:07:00

Laurin: Yeah.

Kathleen: know about it.

Laurin: Yeah. Yeah. So when you were walking, you did that by yourself.

Kathleen: Yeah.

Laurin: And I read just a little bit of your book and the book is called, I have it here somewhere. Wisdom from the from the Camino. I think I got that right.

Kathleen: Winston on the Camino.

Laurin: the Camino. Okay.

Kathleen: A spiritual journey sharing forgiveness and possibilities to inspire the rest of your life.

Laurin: Hmm. Yeah. And I've read a little bit of it. I have to be perfectly honest with the listeners. I have not read the whole book, but it is really good. And I have already put it, I have already ordered my copy of it. So you, you, Talk about how you always felt safe. You didn't feel unsafe traveling by yourself and as women and, and especially as we age and we're maybe not quite as strong as we used to be.

I, I know I've started to feel a little more vulnerable at times. So why were you so comfortable doing that?

guardian angels that I know [: 00:08:00

And so she had them all sit down and she said she had them. Draw a picture of their guardian angel, you know, that picture, it's kind of a famous picture with the kids walking over the, the bridge and the guardian angel standing up there, protecting them. Anyway, they were coloring that and I colored it too, because I like to color and, and so she said, okay, now everybody sit down.

their name is. And the first [: 00:09:00

So there I was sitting there, all the little children sitting there and I got lunk and I'm just like, Lunk? What kind of name is that for an angel? And then I thought, well, with my life, I've had kind of a troubled life. And I thought, well, maybe I need a guy like a giant bouncer looking angel for myself.

You know, that's why his name's Lunk. And then, and then the next year we did it again. And so I was sitting there, you know, guardian angel, what's your name? And I got Mary bell and Mary bell was this flittering around jovial, jovial angel. And she was just all gregarious. And I thought, well, that's balanced between Lunk and you know, Mary bell.

d and then when I was, I was [: 00:10:00

And I got these two angels and One of them's name is Aloysia and she wears like black and red robes. And I thought, well, that's kind of weird for an angel, black and red, but I live right by San Diego state university. So I was like, well, that's their colors. So I guess that makes sense. And then. And then the other one was P.

hem, they're there for me. I [: 00:11:00

Laurin: And so they went to walk the Camino with you then?

Kathleen: I ask them to come with me. Yeah, yeah,

Laurin: a big proponent of figuring out who you're, I call them the guides, but I have angels who are guides too. And I, I, it's been such a life changing kind of knowledge and experience to have, to know that there are. Those on in the unseen world, maybe is how to say it who are, are here to help us here to help us have a, you know, a good life and through hard times and all that kind of stuff.

So I, I have one, I don't really call her my guardian agent angel. I call her my shopping angel. Because I don't like to shop for clothes particularly and and I always seem to need more. And so I just ask her, her name is surreal,

Kathleen: Surreal.

Laurin: surreal. And I, I tell her what I need and I ask her to go find it and let me know when she does and damned if it doesn't work every time.

leen: Oh, wow. You've got it [: 00:12:00

Laurin: So, so I, I like to encourage people to be playful with their guides because, and I think, you know, it's kind of playful to say, could you protect me from the skunks? Sick.

Kathleen: Yeah. Well, you know, what can you do? I'm like,

Laurin: Yeah. And, and, you know, you have to ask, but they're, they're ready to, to help. So I love, I love that part of your story that you asked them to come with you and knew that you were always going to be safe because they were there watching over you. So. The one of the, the subtitle of your book has the spiritual philosophies of forgiveness and possibilities. So can you tell us a little bit about what your philosophies are around that?

on there would have a great [: 00:13:00

Have you heard of that?

Laurin: Yes. And I've used it.

Kathleen: Oh, good. Good. Well I'm just gonna talk a little bit about

Laurin: Yeah, please do. It's powerful.

Kathleen: It's a Hawaiian healing technique for the family. And you say this I'm going to say prayer or incantation, whatever you want to call it, but it starts out with, I love you. And it's the big, I love you.

can say it, you say, I love [: 00:14:00

It's there, please forgive me. And it's not for me, give me cause I did anything, but forgive me for what's going on in me that caused me to attract this. So I have a brokenness in me that caused me to attract them to show it to me. So they pushed my button here, but you know what? I need to take responsibility for my buttons and maybe, you know, if they push my buttons, they turn, they hurt me so deeply that I hate them forever.

d it's thank you for showing [: 00:15:00

Yeah. And then the big I love you again. I love God. God loves me. God loves the other person. The other person loves God. And maybe by then you can say, I love them and they love me. But it, it's really I want to say magical. Maybe I should say mystical.

Laurin: Both.

Kathleen: Yeah, you don't even have to do it with a person.

I mean, you can do it with a person, but you can just do it by yourself because what it does is it looses your binds with the people that you signed up to have adversity with, you know, and maybe you just If you, when I got smart about it, I realized I didn't want to participate in the adversity, you know?

Laurin: Mm

Kathleen: so,

Laurin: Yeah.

ttracted into my life. I had [: 00:16:00

Laurin: hmm. Mm

Kathleen: so so that's what I think.

I don't think, even think I need to forgive anybody anymore. And I, you know, I was my dad was a alcoholic, rageaholic, child molester. So, you know, I have some stuff, but I, I believe that it, it may seem kind of weird to people to think that a child would bring that in because children are innocent.

rse with God and I had a low [: 00:17:00

On the earth. And so I decided even though knowing that I was going to attract really awful stuff with my low vibration. I decided to come in anyway, anyway to raise my vibration because I wanted to be close to God. And so so anyway, you know, all hell broke loose. I mean, you know, terrible. You know, it wasn't good.

before I was telling my sad [: 00:18:00

I mean, I thought it was important because it was true, you know what? It was making things worse all the time. I was just making it worse, making it worse by, by holding on to my story. So, so I, now I have, I, I, I find, I found good things to think about and now I'm on a roll for thinking of good things.

Yeah.

Laurin: a similar path. I had an alcoholic father and a narcissistic mother and towards the end of my mother's life, I was really struggling with forgiveness. Because I was, I had put myself, I didn't realize this at the time, but I had put myself in a victim mode that I was a victim of her or a victim of both of my parents.

nge. It's too late for that. [: 00:19:00

Kathleen: Yeah.

Laurin: And at, and at that point I could forgive her. I could forgive, like you said, not really her, I could forgive the whole situation.

Kathleen: Yeah. Yeah.

Laurin: I've found since then that I can look back and go, wow, I'm a really strong person because of the parents. I had the things that I, I went through that I felt a victim of at the time, but now I see what a great gift.

rd it is to be in human form.[: 00:20:00

Kathleen: Yeah.

Laurin: We,

Kathleen: Probably.

Laurin: think you sign up for more than we really should.

Kathleen: well, you know, the thing about unconditional love is you can't even do it unless you had adversity because it's easy to love the people who love us, but you know, those narcissistic mothers, they're hard to love. And that's where the sweet spot of raising your vibration is,

Laurin: Yeah.

Kathleen: In that, you know?

Laurin: Yeah. And it's, it's the Ho'oponopono is magical. It's mystical. It's magical. I revere the the Hawaiian culture for, for even bringing it to us, you know it's I didn't understand how it worked until I just was so desperate. I repeated it literally for probably about an hour over and over and over again.

And it, it changed my whole perspective on life. And like, yeah, and so now you can move, you can choose how you want to move forward now

Kathleen: Mm-Hmm.

Laurin: with this [: 00:21:00

Kathleen: Yeah.

Laurin: relate.

Kathleen: I, I really feel like God was leading me around and leading me to my healing.

Laurin: hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think we, a lot of us have brought in a lot of healing that needed to be done. And we, I know that I did, I brought lifetimes and ancestral stuff with me so that it could be healed in this lifetime and we don't have to drag it around anymore. And I know a lot of people that I work with as an, as an intuitive healer have done the same thing and it's, it's hard, but it's it's amazing when you, When you get around it and you understand it and you appreciate,

Kathleen: If you figure it out,

look at it and observe what [: 00:22:00

And and it's, it is wonderful. So I'm really loving what else would you like to tell us about your Camino? Is it, was there anybody really fascinating that you, you enjoyed meeting or anything special that happened?

Kathleen: Well, I, you know, like the whole thing, but you know, I, I, one, one situation that I had was I was walking along. It's kind of like the middle of the Camino. And I was it was kind of an arid area with, you know, real short grass and I was just walking on the path and I saw a beautiful ruins in the, in the, in the distance.

e the convent of Saint Anton [: 00:23:00

And so I said, do you have a restroom? And he pointed over to this trailer. And I, so I went over there and it was kind of concealed. You can kind of see outside through the [00:24:00] door hinges, but you know, I was very grateful that. It was a sit down situation for me. And then I went back and I, I didn't want an egg salad sandwich, but I bought a coffee from him and I just kept walking.

And it was just like such an amazing experience. You're like, what just happened here? You know, it was, it was lovely. Another one, I was walking along and, I'm kind of afraid of dogs. I mean, I am totally afraid of dogs. What am I mean? Kind of and so I, I was walking along and here comes a dog. Towards me.

And I was like, Oh man. And and he just walked right past me. Like he knew where he was going. It was a little beagle.

Laurin: Hmm.

and I was walking along and, [: 00:25:00

But Field was on the left. I came to this it was a day when I wasn't feeling very well. I got sick a couple of times on the Camino. But anyway, I came to this clearing in this forest. It was like tall pine trees and there was a, under the pine trees, somebody had brought all this living room and dining room furniture.

And like, it was beautiful. It was like purple velvet couches and stuff

Laurin: Oh, wow. Mm

Kathleen: you know, they had dining room tables and, you know, all the stuff. And there was a guy there and he was, there was a trailer and he was next to the trailer in the counter. He had a Coleman stove and he was frying some hamburgers.

ger and stuck it on the pan. [: 00:26:00

You know, on the couch but I just needed to keep going because I felt sick and I, I needed to get to the next place before I ran out of gas and. And so I just took my hamburger, I was drinking my coffee and and as I left I saw a lady and she had a hammock between two trees and she was just lazing there in the hammock and she gave me a big smile and waved, you know, it was just like they came out to feed the pilgrims, you know, that's why they did that.

And it was just like so many amazing things happen. You just, you're like, what, what? And so I had some, you know, there was the good and the bad, I got in trouble a couple of times.

Laurin: No.[: 00:27:00

Kathleen: But anyway yeah, I, I went to this guess I had thought that I would like to stay in monasteries. That was my idea.

I wanted to stay in monasteries. And so there was this monastery. I thought, well, I'll stay here tonight. They went in there and they actually had a room for me. And so I signed in. When you sign in, you show them your passport, like my passport. USA passport and then you show them your pilgrim passport, which every night where you stay, they stamp on your passport so that when you go to the next place, they'll see that you are a you are a pilgrim.

Laurin: Mm hmm.

nd the men got the whole big [: 00:28:00

So the women's place was like full and the men had this giant room. They had a kit, they had a kitchen. I went up to the town and bought me some eggs. That's what I used to do. I would buy six eggs and I would have two for dinner. two for breakfast, and cook two to take with me for lunch. And so that was, you know, and I I got a zucchini and a red bell pepper.

, and it made me really sick [: 00:29:00

And so I had my, my food container to take my lunch with me. So that was good. the usually you have to be out by eight o'clock in the morning, and they usually tell you that. You have to be out by eight thirty. You have to be out by eight. You have to be out by nine. You know, they tell you. But this guy did not tell us when we had to be out.

And I hadn't slept in like five nights because people snore in the albergues. And so, So I was like, Oh, I'm so tired. And this lady told me just sleep in tomorrow and leave when you can, you know, so, you know, get a good night's sleep. And so that's what I did. And then I was up there making my breakfast at eight o'clock in the morning.

And the guy came in and he's like yelling at us in Spanish. And I kind of knew what he was talking about, but I acted like I didn't know what he was talking about. Cause I was busy. And size of an old lady. You can't yell at me. You know?

Laurin: Mm-Hmm?

Kathleen: And [: 00:30:00

And he came in again and saw me cooking still, and he really got mad and went, rararararararararararara. And I'm like, smiled at him and nodded and, and then he came in and he found his, you know, English words. And he said, what are you doing there this late? You know, you're supposed to be out of here.

now. And and so I just like [: 00:31:00

I, you know, we, I was in a courtyard and, and so she took me over to this door and she she showed me, okay, go this, this, it was the room we came in and I saw a bathroom and I'm like, oh, so I went in the restroom and when I came out, there was the guy.

Laurin: no.

Kathleen: And I, I had pinned some, uh, medals like Mary and a bunch of saints on my collar with a safety pin.

dout like this to give me my [: 00:32:00

But I took the, the pin and I said, well, where's St. Jerome? And he goes, St. Jerome. And he went out in the garden and started looking for my little medal of St. Jerome. And so I was looking too. And then I, I just told him. You know what St. Jerome's must be for somebody else and, and then I left, but, you know, I had some adventures.

Laurin: yeah. Yeah. So was there. A moment where you had like a significant conversation with somebody, another pilgrim or I've heard that, that on the Camino, you kind of get to know each other or you, you kind of bond over a meal or something, but

Kathleen: Right.

Laurin: I'm just wondering, I know there's all kinds of people that walk it for all kinds of different reasons.

And I'm wondering if there's any, anyone that you ran into other than that guy.

n: That guy and then the guy [: 00:33:00

And so I had my tray, it was cafeteria style. And I went over and I thought, well, where should I sit? So I sat down and over there, there was a lady. And then on the other side of her, there was a young man. And there was another guy over here, lady over here and a guy over here. But that guy said to me, Why did you go on the Camino? And I told him about my husband had died and my mother died. My mother, my husband died in August. My mother died in December. And yeah. And so so I anyway, I told him about how when [00:34:00] I had taken care of my husband, you know, and that you know, and then I asked him why he went on the Camino and he said that he had he was in the military and he had a, a week between gigs and so he had a week, so I thought he'd do the Camino and And then, you know, I, I told him about my husband and how, when I was 21, I got married to him.

Oh, I was 20 when I got married to him. I was 20. and I remember thinking at age 20 that. My life was not going to be my life anymore. My life was going to be my life with Ron now. And so there was no question whether I would have taken care of my husband when he was ill in, you know, when we were older, that's just, you know, wasn't any question at all.

her elbow and said, tell her [: 00:35:00

I was 20 years old. I don't know how old he was, but he decided he was too young. And so I told him about Ho'oponopono. And I actually wrote it down for him and his friend wanted the copy of it too. So she took a picture of it and and I said, you know, maybe it will help you live with her. If you lose the binds that you have to have adversity with her, you know, and and then I said, and besides there's no, if she finds another man, he's not going to love your child like you do.

And he said, that's very true.

Laurin: hmm. Mm

Kathleen: And so [: 00:36:00

Laurin: Ooh.

Kathleen: That's enough. You know? And I, and I thought, wow. Yeah. That's what I thought. Wow. Okay.

Laurin: I got goosebumps with that one.

Kathleen: So that was lovely. I was able to share my healing with the people on the Camino. You that's the thing you ask people. Why did you come and then you find out?

Laurin: Yeah. Yeah. That's lovely. So, oh, go ahead.

ittle cake with no frosting. [: 00:37:00

And and so she, this lady said, wow, you must have had a really good relationship with your mother. And I said, No, it's just the first birthday, you know, we always celebrated her birthday. So I just felt like buying a cake, you know no, we didn't have a good relationship. And, and so she said, I, I didn't have one with my mother either.

You know, And so I told her about Ho’oponopono and so there you go.

Laurin: Yeah. Isn't it lovely that you can be in those moments and share just that bit of wisdom that you have

Kathleen: Mm

Laurin: and it changes lives. It's, it's something I think we all forget that we can do.

Kathleen: Yes. It's so important.

ggest difference to somebody [: 00:38:00

Kathleen: I went to Burgos. I spent the, anyway, I, I went to Burgos and I was trying to find my way out of Burgos because there's a big Cathedral there. And I, I was really lost from the Camino. I was, you know, being a sightseer. And this lady, I asked her lady, where's the Camino?

And she said, Oh, it's up there. And then she thought, she said, no, why don't you walk with me? I'm going there. And I, you know, so I walked with her and she was, she she was enjoying talking to me because she was an English teacher in Spain, in Burgos, and she really enjoyed speaking to a native English speaker.

o to be an angel, I, this is [: 00:39:00

She's a single woman living alone, you know, and and I told her my prayer that I say when I don't know what else to do. And the prayer is Dear God, please make everything turn out okay. And then you just let God make everything turn out okay. And you can add in, thank you for making everything turn out okay.

If. You know, it takes a while and just, but miracles happen when I say that prayer. And so she said that she would, she would adopt that practice.

dy was now intrigued. By the [: 00:40:00

What would you suggest they do to sort of learn more about it or, or prepare themselves for it even?

Kathleen: yeah, well, well, you could read my book.

Laurin: Yeah.

Kathleen: It'll, it'll take you on my trip, my journey. Yeah, there's when I decided to, that I was going to do that, there's all kinds of books about it. And I. I bought books and read books and, and then I got a guidebook. I got this really great guidebook. It, it had all the whole Camino in it.

It had like a map, a vertical map of the mountains and everything. So you could see in the miles and everything between. And so I could see, okay, I'm here. I'm going there's a mountain here. Maybe I can't go here. Maybe I need to go the next day. Cause I have to walk up

Laurin: Go up the mountain. Yeah.

Kathleen: So it was really great.

uld look in my book and see, [: 00:41:00

They have, it's all set up for the pill pilgrims. It's kind of like alar, even though it's really cheap. To walk the Camino, it's a large part of their economy in northern Spain is taking care of the pilgrims. And so I yeah like, it's like 5 to 12 euros, maybe even 15. Now. I don't know.

the way. There's a, like the [: 00:42:00

Like maybe you would go to a monastery. Maybe you would go to a, like a family would have a house. Somebody died and they just,

Laurin: Mm hmm.

Kathleen: Look out the walls and put in bunk beds and there's the Albergue, you know and And just different places municipal albergues just a whole bunch of bunk beds, but you know, people snore, so you have to have good earplugs.

Laurin: Mm hmm. That's what I hear too.

Kathleen: yeah, it's like I bought, I bought earplugs before I left. They, I got them online. They said they were the best ones in the world. They didn't even work at all.

Laurin: Oh gosh.

Kathleen: And, and so I met this lady. And I was telling her, you know, I hadn't slept in X amount of days. And so she had these little things that she got it Walgreens and they were those little foam ones, foam

Laurin: hmm. Mm hmm.

Kathleen: just rolled, she licked her finger and rolled it in her finger and stuck it in her ear and let it expand in her

Laurin: Yep.

I used them the rest of the [: 00:43:00

Laurin: Yeah. Did you ever get lonely?

Kathleen: Yes. Okay. So in the beginning of the Camino, it was all windy roads. It was mountain roads, windy roads. And I, I just thought I, all I saw was people passing me up. I mean, I'm an old lady, right? And, and so it made me feel bad. And then when I got to the Meseta, which is Straight and you can see everywhere around.

p, that was kind of a bummer.[: 00:44:00

But people, you know, people would walk by me and like, if they, they saw me, maybe they thought, well, I want to talk to this lady and they would start walking slow next to me. Even these young people walk slow next to me to talk to me. And Yeah, so I had a lot of really lovely conversations. I put them in my book. So the way I wrote my book it, I, I really wanted to write the book about the healing that I had done while my husband was ill. And and then so when I got home from the Camino, I thought, okay, time to write the book, you know, and, and then I was just like, Ooh, I, I didn't feel like I wanted to be teachy.

the way. And then I arranged [: 00:45:00

And so,

Laurin: Yeah. Okay. All right. So I think that brings us to a good stopping place. I love all the, the conversation around Ho'oponopono. I think that's such a valuable practice and something so needed by all of us. To, to learn to forgive, I just have to add that for me, forgiveness felt like I was allowing them to be mean to me, that I was, I was accepting it.

And I did finally learn that forgiveness was about me letting it go. And like you said, and, and, and that I had attracted it to me to learn something and that I needed to learn. And so I can thank them for that and I can be grateful for the opportunity to learn that and let the rest of it go. And that.

Letting it go for me was the part of forgiveness that was the hardest.

Kathleen: Yeah, [: 00:46:00

Laurin: Thank you so much for sharing all that with us because it's, I think that's really powerful. And, and like I said, I really strongly feel like that's something we need to master as, as humans is how to forgive, truly forgive.

Kathleen: Yeah, and really make it a non-issue, you know, make it a no

Laurin: talk about that just a minute. What do you mean by non-issue?

need to forgive them because [: 00:47:00

Laurin: Yeah. Lovely. All right. Can you tell people where they can find you and your book?

Kathleen: well, I have a website, WisdomOnTheCamino.com, and Kathleen at wisdomonthecamino.com. And my, you know, if you go to my website, you can click on the book thing and you can go to Amazon and buy it, or you can just go to Amazon and put in Wisdom on the Camino, and it'll come up. I I wanted to tell everybody that on.

t says, read this first, and [: 00:48:00

Laurin: Yeah.

Kathleen: And, and leave a review if you read it, leave a review.

Laurin: Okay. Well, I want to thank you, Kathleen, for being a great guest. And I want to thank my listeners for being here. And I hope that you are intrigued both by the Camino itself, but also by some of these stories that Kathleen has shared about the lessons that she was, or the gifts she was able to give people along the way of her own wisdom and experience, because you can do that too, whether you're on the Camino or anywhere else.

[: 00:49:00

Thank you so much for joining us today on Curiously Wise, I hope this conversation has left you feeling inspired and curious about the world around and within you. After all curiosity is the key to growth and understanding. So keep asking questions and exploring new ideas. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and or leaving a review. It helps us be found by others. If you're curious to learn more about me or my healing practice, Heartlight wellness.

Head over to my website HeartlightJoy.com. Until next time. I'm Laurin Wittig. Stay curious!